Etsitkö kamppailuharrastusta? Aloita suoraan tästä uusi aihe valmiiden kysymysten kanssa ja odota, kun konkarit vastaavat sinulle. :boxing2:

Catch

Kamppailu-urheilulajit eli BJJ, MMA, nyrkkeily, paini, potkunyrkkeily, thainyrkkeily jne.

Valvoja: Valvoja

Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

Snake Pit Wiganin sivut ovat uudistuneet ja historia osuus on erityisen hyvä.

https://www.snakepitwigan.com/history/

Tässä pätkiä:

"Catch as Catch Can or Lancashire Wrestling has a long history. The name implies that unlike many traditional wrestling styles there is no set grip with exponents taking opportunities as they come this enables a wider variety of tactics and techniques. This would mean other wrestlers from the other British styles and those from further afield, many of whom came to Wigan looking for work, could compete within the Lancashire rules bringing their tactics and techniques with them. Bouts were also allowed to continue on the ground until a pin or submission was achieved, meaning Catch wrestlers developed the ability to continue wrestling on the ground.

In the 1800s sporting digest the Badminton Library described a Lancashire wrestling match as “..an ugly sight: the fierce animal passions of the men which mark the struggles of maddened bulls, or wild beasts, the savage yelling of their partisans, the wrangling, and finally the clog business which settles all disputes and knotty points, are simply appalling” Wigan was long known as the hot bed of wrestling, Catch being a popular sport amongst miners and working men. Matches often took places in fields with up to 10,000 spectators. The winner would be celebrated in the local pub whilst the loser, rumour has it, would be thrown into a nearby canal!"

Väinö Ketonenkin mainitaan!

"Billy Riley showed enthusiasm towards wrestling from a young age and started his professional wrestling career aged 14 with his mother often placing wagers on her son’s success. The young Riley fast developed a reputation for skill and tenacity. His skills being honed with coaching from Willie Charnock, Peter Burns and Finish Wrestler Waino Ketonen. He developed his skills through wrestling local miners in his hometown of Wigan. Riley won both the Welterweight and Middleweight championships in England. Later Riley would tour America and Africa demonstrating his wrestling skills. In the 1930s in Johannesburg he became the British Empire Middleweight Champion."
"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

Catch- ja show-paini otteita vuodelta 1931:

"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

Viihdyttävä videossa jossa käydään nopeasti läpi cätsin vaikutusta vapaa ja showpainiin sekä japanilaisen showpainin yhteyttä vapaaottelun kehitykseen. Videon teemana on kutenkin japanin proto-vapaaotteluorganisaatiot ja sopuottelut. Joka senkin antaa hyvin kuvaa siitä millainen ammattipainin-scene oli 1900-luvun alussa. Hyvin kirjava.

"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

Mun kirjottama englanninkielinen artikkeli Väinö Ketosesta julkastiin tänään Ketosen kuolinpäivän muistoksi kansainvälisellä slamwrestling sivustolla.

https://slamwrestling.net/index.php/202 ... -wrestler/
"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

Viidyttävä ja hyvään tutkimusainoistoon perustuva video Catchin kehityksestä ja ennenkaikkea kuristusten yleisyydestä ja kieltämisestä. Itse olen ollut siinä uskossa että kuristukset eivät koskaan olleet normi ja että lukotkin tulivaty kuvioon 1900 luvun alussa jujutsun maihinousun myötä. Mutta saatoin olla väärässä.

"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

Löysin mielenkiintoisia artikkeleja amerikkalaiselta painitutkijalta Ruslan Pashayevilta. Tässä tutkielma kreko- ja catch-painin yhteisistä frankkilaisista juurista.

https://www.wrestling-titles.com/europe ... tling.html

"The strongest men preferred competing in a standing position with only catch-holds above the waist being allowed. They thought that those who did consider themselves to be the strongest in order to throw a man didn’t need holds below the waist, hooking, tripping nor they need wrestling on the ground.

But if the Frankish men decided to compete on a “free-for-all” conditions (catch-as-catch-can, or catch-holds of any part of the person’s body being allowed) then back fall (or a fall) wasn’t enough to win the struggle and the victor had to continue the match on the ground until his adversary quits any resistance and verbally confesses his defeat because of being “captured” (restrained in the movements and kept immovable)."

"At some point in history the principle of ”throwing” on the back was replaced with a more progressive idea of placing on the back, pressing shoulders down, and maintaining this submissive position for certain amount of time. That was achievable only when both wrestlers were down on the ground. That is how the pinning fall was invented. This revolutionary introduction was the birth of a new Western European tradition of ground wrestling which found its climax in the concept of a pinning fall being the only true real fall. The game is over when it’s over and one of the two is kept immovable flat on his back (controlling)."

"The earliest known immigration of the Flemish textile workers (aka Flemish weavers) to East Lancashire, England goes back to the 1300s. They brought to their new place their traditional rough-and-tumble wrestling style called the Stoeijen which over the time evolved there into the professional Lancashire up and down wrestling/fighting, a combative style which predated Lancashire catch-as-catch-can wrestling. In the XVI-XVII centuries French and German “weaving” Protestants who along with the Flemish fled religious persecutions on the Continent brought their old Frankish catch-hold wrestling customs to East Lancashire and West Yorkshire where they merged with the traditional English catch-hold wrestling style and over the course of centuries this combination evolved there into a new culturally unique style of wrestling the Lancashire Catch-as-catch-can. This style went through the various stages of evolution and gave birth to the modern day pro wrestling (catch) as well as it strongly influenced the current international Freestyle wrestling and different grappling styles."
"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

Vielä tiivistelmä noiden edelliseten lainausten tärkeimmistä pointesita: Frankit harjoittivat catch-hold (otevapaa) vastakohtana monien kansojen fix-hold (otesama) panille. Vahvat eivät suosineet kamppeja, heikot suosivat. Kaadot olivat monesti kiistanalaisia joten jossain vaiheessa voitoa alettiin hakea selkeällä selätyksellä. Näin alkuperäisestä pystypainista kehittyi matto/ylösalas-paini. Felmisiläiset (jotka ilmeisesti olivat frankkeja) muuttivat lachashierin aluelle jo 1300-luvulla tuoden mukanaan oman otevapaa painityylinsä. Tästä kehittyi catch-paini.

Tässä Ruslanin artikkeli englantilaisen catch-as-catch-can-painin kehityksestä (bulkkaukset omiani):

https://www.wrestling-titles.com/europe ... tling.html

"Lancashire wrestling (Catch-as-catch-can) was a folk amateur and professional freestyle wrestling culturally unique to the residents of East Lancashire, England. In the early 1850s in England outside East Lancashire this style of wrestling was known as the Manchester or Lancashire wrossle."

"Professionalism in Lancashire catch wrestling was introduced in the 1820s and since then this style of wrestling was often referred to as a Catch-as-catch-can after the Lancashire fashion. The majority of professionals were recruited from the local colliers, and the most skilled of them were called the “black diamonds.”"

Eli suurin osa ammatilaisista oli hiilikaivos-duunareita. Ekat kirjalliset säännöt oli vuodelta 1856 jossa kiellettiin kaikenlainen brutaalisuus kuten kuristaminen sekä piikkikenkien ja öljyjen käyttö.

"In the late 19th century the epicenter of catch pro wrestling moved to Wigan, Lancs. This town which gave birth to so many generations of top-notch catch wrestlers maintained its superiority in the 20th century as well and is known among the fans and practitioners of catch wrestling as the “Mecca of Catch-as-catch-can.” "

"Since 1904 NAWA Catch-as-catch-can Rules (pinfalls or a referee decision based on points in case the back fall wasn’t achieved) were generally accepted by both amateurs and professionals of Great Britain. During that era all catch wrestling contests (for both amateurs and professionals) in East Lancashire were governed by the updated version of the Manchester’s "Sporting Chronicle" Rules which were in harmony with the current NAWA Rules. ​Among the most famous pro Lancashire catch wrestlers of the British Wrestling Boom Era were: Harry Mort of Oldham, Tom Rose of Bolton, Willie Collins, Jack Carroll (nephew of Joe Carroll), Jack Brown, William Charnock, Jim Foster and Bob Berry all from the Wigan areas, Job Shambley of Westhoughton, Peter Bannon of Burnley, Jack Winrow of Heywood."

Ruslan esittää että 1900-luvun alussa Lancashire CACC-säännöt korvautui Lontoon-CACC säännöillä (joiden juuret olisivat Saksalaisessa Ringenissä. Minulle täysin uusi teoria jota en heti niele.) Väinö Ketonen voitti voitti kesksarjan MM-vyön Jack Carrolilat 1911 Wiganissa. Jossa hän myös pani raskaansarjan Jim Fosterin kanssa häviten ottelun.

In order to popularize professional combative sports among local men in 1930 the Wrestling and Boxing Comrades’ Association (W&BCA) was established in Wigan, Lancs. The chairman of W&BCA was a former pro wrestler and famous rugby coach T. McCarthy. Among the associates of that organization were legendary Joe Carroll and famous Billy Riley, who was a father of the modern Wigan catch wrestling (aka the “Snake Pit” Catch). 

"The origin of Lancashire catch wrestling goes all the way back to the 1300s. Notably, outside the area of East Lancashire a wrestling style, which allowed catch-holds of any part of the person’s body as well as the ground-wrestling, was unknown in Medieval England. Those two major features of Lancashire catch wrestling were of continental origin.

In 14th century they were brought to the Salford and Blackburn Hundreds of Lancashire County, England by the Flemish immigrants who were invited to England by King Edward III (1312-1377), who was married to Princess Philippa of Hainault with Flemish ancestry since 1328.

The textile workers from Flanders (aka Flemish weavers) who were destined to establish the cotton industry in Lancashire at first settled in the vicinity of the town of Bolton, Lancs, that happened in 1337. That is why the rough-and-tumble Lancashire up and down style of wrestling was often called the “Bolton Method.”"

Tämä oli minulle uusi tieto/teoria. Tiesin kyllä että Lancasiren alueella oli puvillateollisuutta mutta en sitä että sen kehittivät sinne nämä Flamishilaiset enkä sitä että he toivat alueelle otevapaa-painin. Uskon teorian.

"According to the rules of Lancashire up and down fighting the victory was awarded only for “submissions” (usually a strangle hold, a hang or a full-Nelson) or “unable to continue” condition. The defeat had to be admitted verbally, or by raising the hand."

1600-luvulla oli tyypillistä ratkaista riidat "Lancashiren tappelutavalla". Voitto saavutettiin alistusotteella, mutta löydä ei saanut.

"Due to the great number of deaths which occurred during up and down fights this combative sport became illegal in the 1820s. Because of that up and down fighting prize ring was soon replaced with the pro Lancashire catch wrestling."

"Summarizing the above, the original up and down wrestling which was brought to East Lancashire and West Yorkshire by the Flemish textile workers over the centuries transformed into the up and down fighting, a professional combative sport which in the early 1800s became illegal and in the first half of 19th century with introduction of the fair play rules evolved into the pro Lancashire catch-as-catch-can up and down wrestling."

"The original up and down Lancashire catch wrestling was basically a variation of the Flemish “Cockfighting” wrestling game. In that style to give a fall/throw/take down wasn’t enough and the victor had to master his opponent on the ground by “capturing” him (keeping him immovable underneath in a submissive position) for the previously agreed amount of time or making him admit his defeat verbally or by raising his hand."

"In this short paragraph Frank Gotch defines the art of catch-as-catch-can wrestling, he expressly denies any form of brutality and promotes clean catch wrestling under the National Police Gazette Rules (see in Pioneers’ Catch); he also explains his most famous hold, the toe-hold, a wrestling hold which some wrestling history researchers of the modern age erroneously classified as a "submission hold'' (in the generally accepted modern understanding of it) and which, as it is clearly seen from this Gotch’s interview, in fact was not. There were two kinds of holds and combinations in catch wrestling: those that lead to directly forcing the opponent onto his shoulders, and those that make him turn his shoulders to the mat himself."

Artikkelissa on lehtileikkeitä jossa itse Frank Gotch sanoo CACC-säännöistä että vastustaja kuuluu kääntää harteileen reilulla otteella, mutta jos sattuu loukkaantuminen niin se ei ole kääntäjän vika. Kuristaa ei saa ja väännettävälle tulisi antaa mahdollisuus kääntyä selälleen kun vaarallista otetta käytetään.

"Currently the wide variety of professional catch wrestling styles which evolved from Lancashire catch-as-catch-can wrestling or were inspired and influenced by it can be found all around the world. The knowledge of catch wrestling became an essential skill for every mixed martial artist of the modern era.

The most informative and detail oriented catch-as-catch-can wrestling manual up-to-date still is A Hand-Book of Wrestling written by Hugh Leonard, a successful professional catch-as-catch-can wrestler who performed and trained with the very best in his profession. "

Siinä tämän artikkelin kiinnostavimmat. Olen vaikuttunut ja vakuuttunut tästä Russlanin tutkimuksesta.
"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

FB-foorumilta Mark Hewitin (ehkä arvostetuin catch-historioitsija) kirjoittamaa.

"So I'll weigh in on the question at hand: IMO professional wrestling has always, and I mean always, been a combination of "shoot" and "work." The best pro wrestlers were capable of both. "Shooting" was not unknown well into the 20th century. Top level pro wrestlers did "shoot" it out in public venues on occasion-19th century, 1900's, 1910's, 1920's (and even later in the occasional double-cross or mutually agreed upon "shoot"). By the 1930's, "shooting" became pretty much taboo, but many of the pros were still indeed very capable "shooters." "Shooting" was preserved as something of a "lost art." One of the last strongholds of "shoot" wrestling, until the recent revival of legit grappling, was found in the carnival athletic shows, known as "at shows." Though these carny matches were quite often "worked" as well, using wrestlers posing as "outside men" standing among the crowd to make a challenge. However they were always prepared to take on any local tough guy, college wrestler, pro from a rival promotion, etc. with money on the line. Every "at show" carried at least one skilled "shooter" among the troupe. The late Dick Cardinal guessed that he had hundreds of "shoots" while working the carny circuit. Karl Von Hess has told me the very same thing. They would generally have to make the challenger give up audibly, so that all could hear. A pin fall could be disputed which might cause a midway crowd to raise a ruckus and tear down the tent. One other question that has popped up here is whether or not submission was practiced among old-time pro catch-as-catch-can wrestlers. The answer is a resounding yes, particularly in North America. As early as the 1880's, at least a decade before there is any documented influence from Japanese judo or jiu-jitsu, pro catch-as-catch-can contests were won by the victor forcing his opponent to give up/concede/surrender-not rolling onto his back but by crying out "enough" or otherwise signaling the referee. I am working on an article now that will document some of these bouts. (Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I respectfully offer mine, fully convinced that it can be backed up with research and documentation.)"
"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

SankePit Wiganin IG-sivut:

Paljon hyviä kuvia matseista ja videoita perustekniikoista.
"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

FBn "wrestling history saloon" foorumilla on muutamat viikot väännetty kovasti siitä että käytettiinkö todellisissa catch-oteluissa luovutusotteita selätysten lisäksi, vai olivatko ne vaan osa show-matseja sen jälkeen kun jujutsu/judo miehet toivat ne peliin mukaan 1905 vuoden jälkeen. Lähinnä tuo pari vistiä ylempänä manitsemani Ruslan on pitänyt kivenkovaa kiinni mustavalkoisesta ajattelusta ja väittänyt että catchissä ei luovutusotteita käyetty, ja jos käytettiin niin ne olivat sovittuja otteluita. Vaikeahan sitä on ollut edes paikanpäällä katsomastakäsin sanoe oliko ettelu sovittu vai totinen. Saatikka sitten yli sata vuotta myöhemmin otteluraporttien perusteella. Tässä on kuitenkin historioitsiaj Mark Hewittin tuore artikkeli/tutkimus jonka perusteella itse uskon että todellisissakin catch-otteluissa on käytetty lukkoja ja kuristamisia sekä selättämiseen että muuhun alistamiseen. Kopion koko tekstin ja lihavoin lopusta pääpointin:



Greek George, Catch-As-Catch-Can and Submission Holds in 19th Century North America
Greek George was one of the well-known barnstorming professional wrestlers in North America in the last two decades of the 19thcentury. Born in Greece, as a youth he made his way to Liverpool, England and onward to New York City, working aboard ships. After a stint in the US Navy, he joined the troupe of strongman and wrestler Antonio Panay and toured the world. Back in the US in the early 1880’s, he embarked on his own career as a pro wrestler. Originally billed as Theodore George, he soon became known far and wide simply as Greek George.
George was adept at both Greco-Roman and catch-as-catch-can styles. He also engaged in what he called “Mexican wrestling”, grappling while on horseback. In addition to his wrestling skills, Greek George was quite a showman and even staged Bowie knife duels, did some boxing and performed strong man stunts. In 1888 he agreed to wrestle William Stone, a British wrestler and boxer. The bout was held at Shuck’s Hall in Springfield, IL on November 1, 1888. The articles of agreement called for the match to be contested under “Lancashire style, catch-as-catch-can, all dangerous holds permitted” rules. That, of course, included choke holds.
As the match commenced. George and Stone briefly sparred for holds, but the former soon had his opponent down on all fours and had taken his back. From this position, George seized one of Stone’s legs, and using his own as a fulcrum, he began bending it in a direction it was never meant to go. The resulting pain was excruciating, and the Brit cried out, “Are you going to break my leg, man? The Greek growled back, “I will if you don’t give up. This is Lancashire style.” Stone promptly audibly conceded the fall, and the referee broke them up. Following a brief rest, the combatants resumed the mat battle. George quickly took Stone down and pinned him with a body press for the second and winning fall. A local newspaper described the match as “almost brutal.” (1.)
A few weeks later in Lafayette, IN, Greek George faced Major J. A. Maguire in a catch-as-catch-can bout and won in two straight falls. He gained the first by pinfall, but achieved the second with a leg hold that “made Maguire squeal” his concession. (2.) Another notable example of a fall being achieved by forcing an opponent to audibly give up was in Wyandotte, MI on November 9, 1889. Henry Schellenberger, “a mixed wrestler of considerable repute” defeated Tom McMahon of Detroit. The match was held under mixed style rules, meaning falls were alternated in different wrestling styles. In this case the two styles chosen were catch-as-catch-can and collar-and-elbow. Schellenberger usually stipulated that when he wrestled catch-as-catch-can it would be with nothing barred. Such was the case for this bout. He won the initial fall at catch, lost the next under collar-and-elbow, but took the 3rd and the match at catch-as-catch-can. Schellenberger gained that last fall by locking McMahon in a strangle hold and forcing him to surrender before he would have been choked unconscious. McMahon was not pinned, but gave up.
Tom McMahon, the Detroit Athletic Club wrestling instructor figured in another bout that exhibits the reality of submission wrestling in the 19th century. In a contest with Pete “Dutchy” Schumacher held Dec. 1, 1894 in Cleveland, a newspaper account describes, ”Peter got the strangle hold and held it hard and firm until his man finally broke away weak. A moment later he got the same hold again, and although McMahon kept one shoulder off the mat, he was forced to signal that he gave up the fall and the match was awarded to Schumacher.” Upon this victory, Schumacher claimed the catch-as-catch-can middleweight championship of the Unites States. (3.)
Yet again another example is found in a private contest held in Albany, NY between Prof. M.J. “Mike” Dwyer and Karl Johnson, “the Terrible Swede.” The rules were “catch-as-catch-can, no holds barred.” The match was held on November 28, 1899. Dwyer won the 2nd and 3rd falls, but had conceded the first. In the opening fall, Johnson “got Dwyer’s arm in a hammerlock and Dwyer gave up, shouting that his arm was being broken.” (4.)
One last example is found from March 24, 1898 in Olean, NY. Ed Atherton, who claimed the middleweight championship of America, wrestled west coast mat man Tom Davies for $200 a side, a percentage of the gate, and with the title on the line. After 45 minutes of grueling grappling without any falls, Atherton tied his adversary up with a back hammerlock and ½ Nelson combination. Davies could not break it and gamely resisted until the ligaments in his arm were torn loose. He gave up the fall and with his appendage dangling uselessly at his side he forfeited the rest of the match. Atherton had “forced Davies to concede the fall, although he did not down his man.” (5.) The winner “did not down his man but tortured him into submission.” (6.) The sportswriters particularly pointed out that Atherton was awarded the fall, not by pinning Davies, but by making him give up.
Although catch-as-catch-can was traditionally contested by pinfalls, or “fair back falls” as it was termed, forcing an opponent to give up and the use of concession holds was not unknown, at least in North America. It is to be observed that in the first three matches cited above, each was billed as “catch-as-catch-can” and took place in the 1880’s, at least a decade before there was any influence of Japanese jiu-jitsu or judo in the western world. (7.) And even in the 1890’s bouts mentioned, it was well before the “jiu-jitsu craze” had invaded the western world. Grappling (8.) is universal and has never been completely static in time and place as it developed around the globe.
No doubt, catch-as-catch-can, with its roots in Lancashire, England, as it was popularized in North America, was strongly influenced by rough-and-tumble fighting. Rough-and-tumble was widely practiced in America since colonial times. It was often dubbed “gouging”, due to the propensity for fighters to attack one another eyes. Rough-and-tumble had only two unofficial rules-never gouge out the remaining eye of a one-eyed man, and cease all hostilities when one man cried out “enough.” It can clearly be established that there long existed a strong precedent in North America for the use of making an opponent give up in combat sports. Frank Gotch recalled that in his earliest wrestling matches, “…the best wrestler was the best fighter, for the rules were that if you succeeded in getting an opponent helpless on the ground you were allowed to whale away at him till he cried ‘enough’.” (9.) Gotch boasted, “In a rough-and-tumble fight I can lick any man in the world…in the go-as-you-please style of milling I would take him down and choke the daylights out of him…I would have him on his back in a jiffy and then strangle him until he cried quits.” (10.) One of the great old-time professional wrestlers Harvey Parker whose career spanned the 19th and 20th centuries, stated that he was originally “a rough-and-tumble wrestler…which resulted in catch-as-catch-can style.” (11.)
It is interesting to observe the challenges and counter-challenges that flew back and forth between two of the leading professional wrestlers of that era, Evan “Strangler” Lewis and Jack Carkeek in 1886. Lewis wanted to wrestle “catch-as-catch-can, no holds barred.” Carkeek opted for the strangle hold being disallowed, but finally offered, “I will go into a private room with him and wrestle a match for $1,500-no referee, no restrictions, no rules, and the first man that cries ‘enough’ loses the pot.” (12.) The concept of making an adversary submit/concede/surrender/ give up/cry “enough” (13.) in a one-on-one fight is deeply rooted in America and became part and parcel of professional wrestling. Whether that submission is signaled by an audible concession, tapping out, or allowing your shoulders to touch the mat is a moot point. Obviously, Japanese martial arts did indeed impact combat sports in the western world as well as popular culture in general. However, making an opponent give up was nothing new to the old-time professional wrestlers who were plying their trade even years before they ever heard of jiu-jitsu or judo.
Some closing words from Tom Connor, one of catch-as-catch-can’s legendary “grand masters.” Asked in 1905 about Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, he stated, “These same holds were in use in the Lancashire catch-as-catch-can style up to some forty years ago until the magistrates of Lancashire prohibited such unfair methods. I for one, remember three men being killed by the choke-hold and the double-nelson
.” (14.)
"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kari Aittomäki
päähänpotkija
Viestit: 15520
Lauteille: Helmikuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Kokkola

Catch

Viesti Kari Aittomäki »

Hyvä artikkeli, kiitos.

On aikas uskottavaa että fightstopperit saavuttivat moni-ilmeisyytensä kiertävien sirkusten ammattipainijoitten työkaluina.
Kun joku riski sepänsälli saatto riemastua kääntään painimisen silkaksi tappelukseksi, taltuttavia tekniikoita tarvittiin.
Tätä sattui kaiketi usein.

Onhan tuosta kansalliseepoksessakin esimerkki, kun Seitsemän veljestä viettävät joulua. Vanhin veli Juhani häviää painissa väkevälle Tuomaalle eikä tykkää tuloksesta.
"Näkyy että voitat minun painissa, vaan tules tappelemaan."
"Tiedä paini leikiksi,"
"Minä tiedän sen leikiksi jota usein seuraa tappelus ja murha."
Näin piipittää sivusta Simeoni.

Nämä fightstopperit on kai jaettava pinholdseihin eli sidontoihin; "Rauhoitu! Luovuta!"
Sekä kivuliaisiin stretch'ihin, vähemmässä määrin lukkoihin ja jopa kuristuksiin.
Sretsit eroaa nivelten repimisistä siinä että ottaavat kipiää mutta eivät uhkaa rikkoa.
Tässä ois kulttuurieroa jiujitsun taistelutekniikoista laimennettuihin tekniikoihin, joita aivan lehdistössäkin kommentoitiin.
EJMAS'sta löytyy.
Mulle sitä eroa selvitti Larry Hartsell, korostaen taltuttamisnäkökulmaa.
Jonka sopivuutta järjestyksenvalvontaan hän korosti ja hamalla kaheksankytluvulla, kun minä kontaktin sain.

Eli ei kai luovutus-otteiden (kenttä)käyttöä oikeasti voi kyseenalaistaa. Joka lie luo paineita asian säilyttämiseen sporttikuviossa.

Asiasta on kaikuja vuosituhannen vaihteeseen asti, epäilemättä yhä.
Kuvake
Antti
etupotkija
Viestit: 2433
Lauteille: Tammikuu 2005
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Liikuntafilologia

Catch

Viesti Antti »

Alleviivaan vielä tämän tärkeän kohdan:
The concept of making an adversary submit/concede/surrender/ give up/cry “enough” (13.) in a one-on-one fight is deeply rooted in America and became part and parcel of professional wrestling. Whether that submission is signaled by an audible concession, tapping out, or allowing your shoulders to touch the mat is a moot point.
Mietin, että voisiko se, että vastustaja selättää itsensä kivun tms. takia olla "varsinaisen" luovuttamisen luonnollinen esiaste.

Ja vielä viite 13:
Making someone “say ‘uncle’ “ is another oft-used description of forcing a submission. I’ve attempted to discover the origin of that expression but have not gotten too far. It apparently traces back to ancient Roman times.
Kommentoin jo ryhmässä, mutta laitetaan tännekin, että todennäköisin alkuperä lienee OED:n ehdottama iirin "anacal", joka merkitsee säästämistä, armon antamista tms., josta sitten on kansanetymologisesti tullut "uncle".
Antti Ijäs
Studia dimicatoria (blogi), Zotero-profiili (julkaisuja)
"Öyh, öyh, öyh, karjasi sika ja ryntäsi pimeässä Eenokin ylitse ovelle." (Tuulispää 28.9.1928.)
Kuvake
Jasse
etupotkija
Viestit: 3158
Lauteille: Maaliskuu 2006
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Katori Shinto ryu
Sivulajit: IP, BJJ, SW, KB, MMA, CACC
Takalajit: Budoturismi

Catch

Viesti Jasse »

Juu. Eikö ne koiratkin selätä itsensä kun alistuvat? Mulla ei oo koiraa niin en tiiä..
Tuohon kuulostaa hyvältä teorialta. Kuka on OED?
"Tyyneys on lepäävää rohkeutta." - Bushido/Nitobe
Kuvake
Antti
etupotkija
Viestit: 2433
Lauteille: Tammikuu 2005
Paikkakunta: Helsinki
Etulaji: Liikuntafilologia

Catch

Viesti Antti »

Oxford English Dictionary.
Antti Ijäs
Studia dimicatoria (blogi), Zotero-profiili (julkaisuja)
"Öyh, öyh, öyh, karjasi sika ja ryntäsi pimeässä Eenokin ylitse ovelle." (Tuulispää 28.9.1928.)

Seuraajat

Kuvake
Andy
Kuvake
Antti
Kuvake
Clancy B.
Kuvake
Fubarbarian
Hiimän
Kuvake
Hukka
JAH
Kuvake
JanneM
Kuvake
Jasse
Kari Aittomäki
KingBuzzo
Linde
MaxD
Kuvake
Paliapna
Pirunnyrkki
Kuvake
Point
serpico
Sieppo
sikajudoka
Kuvake
sivarinlötkö
Kuvake
sundaywarrior
turmio2
VeeVee
Vipa